My place to discuss game related stuff, as a gamer and developer.

I think to reduce the overpoweredness of ship labs, the following should take place once the tech is researched:

1) 1st level of tech should give weapons labs, 2nd level should give imperial labs.

2) On each tech level research, the following would also occur:

a ) Labs of that type would be disabled, to have no effect on tech tree. This should be a permanent, uncounterable, undisablable effect.

b ) Labs would be auto-scuttled. This scuttling would be unstoppable. Player gets resource payback normally from this scuttling.

c ) No more labs of that type can be constructed.

 

This IMO would mitigate, perhaps solve the OP'dness of ship labs. You are basically trading the physical labs for ship ones, and forfeiting the construcion of planet labs altogether.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Jun 24, 2012




So at the end of this the Vasari are no 8/8 in Civ and 8/8 in mil labs. Lets see how far on top they come out in all this.

3000C to get to shipboard

1800C for prerequisites to Research shipboard labs

2400C to finally research the damn labs themselves.

9000C for the Capital ships themselves so you can be 8/8 in all research trees.

With a grand total of 16200 Credits! What a steal! So Vasari could actually not do ship board labs, and buy another Capital ship to fight with instead. Or a bunch of ships to supplement their fleet.

As for awesome logistical slots left open after this? I dunno. Could plant down a Refinery/Broadcast center/or Trade station I guess, but they won't return their value till late game I belive.

And the whopping 3.5 credits per capital ship? Thats there to make up for the fact that Vasari Loyalists have almost no population to tax, and I'm not sure if you can even plant a trade station on the Dead Asteroids after they've be devoured. But I'm pretty sure after taxes, it ain't nothin to write home about.

But I would like to know what absurdly game breaking things Vasari Loyalists can do with their now open Logistics slots. I fear I might be severally uninteresting their secret powers.

 

Your conclusion is kind of off here. Sure, you can add up the costs, and say it costs plenty to get the 8 shipboard labs. But you completely fail to mention a few things.

 

1) You also don't need to upgrade logistic slots on any of your planets, which other factions would need to to get so many labs on just a few planets. Small thing, maybe.

2) 9000C for the Capital ships. Yes, true, but each of those capital ships is a big benefit on its own. It gives you increased military strength, which building labs wouldn't. Each capital ship is effectively worth a bit less than wo trade ports as well, which is nice.

 

So basically, you can try to list numbers all you want, but if you're really trying to say that VL is spending 16200 credits just to get 8 labs, you're way off. As for the open logistic slots, they aren't so much game-breaking as just an extra advantage thrown in there.

on Jun 24, 2012

deathbypie

 Each capital ship is effectively worth a bit less than two trade ports as well, which is nice.

 

Actually they are worth more than 3 tradeports in terms of income. 3,5 to be honest. Two trade ports would generate that income only in a chain of about 4-5 planets. Good luck beating that early on. 

on Jun 24, 2012

vyolin


Actually they are worth more than 3 tradeports in terms of income. 3,5 to be honest. Two trade ports would generate that income only in a chain of about 4-5 planets. Good luck beating that early on. 

Oh, I was just checking the numbers from a game I had with one trade port in single player, but that was set to "faster income rates". That being said, I find it somewhat interesting that capital ship income is unaffected by game speeds, so is more useful with settings on lower income rates.

on Jun 24, 2012

How about this?

Research is drastically slowed down if there are no dedicated labs present. Lets say 25 to 50 percent.

 Why because they do not have the space on the capital ship that they would in a dedicated lab since, the ship needs to have the space used for other things like weapons and crew.

on Jun 24, 2012

Polistes
How about this?

Research is drastically slowed down if there are no dedicated labs present. Lets say 25 to 50 percent.

 Why because they do not have the space on the capital ship that they would in a dedicated lab since, the ship needs to have the space used for other things like weapons and crew.

 

While this may make sense, i think the point is to give incentives to go fully mobile for VL players - not to punish them for doing that. And this is exactly that kind of solution.  

on Jun 24, 2012

You can't have your cake and eat it too, either we try to balance that or we accept that somethings will remain unbalanced.

I just gave IMO a good solution to tech rushing, and one thats actually realistic as well.

As for incentives we already have the titan capital, stripped to the core, and summon ships and ship board research. Thats all pretty boss as it stands, a bigger penalty would be nerfing stripped to the core's resource output.(And thus removing the best incentive to go fully mobile.)

on Jun 24, 2012

@ OP

Just add the cost of the labs onto the cost of the vasari capital ships.  In this way they will still be balanced.  The research would still be beneficial because the labs would be mobile and therefore have a strong tactical advantage worth researching.

on Jun 24, 2012

Personally, I think VL labs are fine. Far to difficult to balance without a really big game change.

on Jun 24, 2012

deathbypie


 

Your conclusion is kind of off here. Sure, you can add up the costs, and say it costs plenty to get the 8 shipboard labs. But you completely fail to mention a few things.

 

1) You also don't need to upgrade logistic slots on any of your planets, which other factions would need to to get so many labs on just a few planets. Small thing, maybe.

2) 9000C for the Capital ships. Yes, true, but each of those capital ships is a big benefit on its own. It gives you increased military strength, which building labs wouldn't. Each capital ship is effectively worth a bit less than wo trade ports as well, which is nice.

 

So basically, you can try to list numbers all you want, but if you're really trying to say that VL is spending 16200 credits just to get 8 labs, you're way off. As for the open logistic slots, they aren't so much game-breaking as just an extra advantage thrown in there.

I'm not tossing out a bunch of numbers because it gives me a hard on, I'm using them because it's the best way to put things into perspective. Look the Loyalist are already paying a premium to have ship board labs. Saying "well it took less then 30 minutes!" isn't really a point either because its not like they hit 8 of 8 labs and now they have all the upgrades researched.

They are the only faction that uses fleet supply to have their research structures. Also if they lose any of their capital ships early game it means they are doubly screwed. So use that time to expand more aggressively. They can't have research and build capital ships and build a fleet and expand consistently.

Ship board labs is a benefit of the faction. Its actually really balanced where its at right now and any heavy handed nerfs this community is so keen to dole out will make it so there is no damn point to research the labs and use them, and make it one less reason to play Vasari Loyalist. You need to understand that you can't as play them or against them like any other faction. 

on Jun 24, 2012

I dont know if this as been suggested yet but what if you had to upgrade each capital ship with a military or civilian labs?

So you would have to research the ship board lab then buy the the labs on each capital ship. I was thinking you could buy it through the ability management tab I believe there is some room there to add them

on Jun 25, 2012

I know I'm riding a dead horse here but the strength of the Shipboard Labs is mainly due to the strength of Stripped to the Core. Balance SttC and get rid of the second level of SHipboard Labs (fractions don't seem to work) and you are good to go.

on Jun 25, 2012

I realy dont know if this feature is powered. As i dont played enought yet. So i dont know if the other faction have overpowered things too. 

I would like to see that every race have some overpowered things and you just need to decide which overpowered feature do you will have. 

 

for the moment Rebells SB movement is OP and VL Researchlabs are OP. Maybe we just need a OP thing for the other factions too


But. for me: You need to build this labs on ships. you dont get them for nothing. U need to pay for every nextlevel lab.

 

on Jun 25, 2012

I think 2 labs per capital ship is pretty crazy. It might be better to either shift it back one tech level (as well as strip to the core), and/or reduce it to 1 lab per capital ship. Or perhaps, a messier option would be to grant each capital ship 1 of each lab, but then each cap would need to individually upgrade 1 additional lab (either military or civilian, but not both). Or perhaps, 1 lab per capital ship, and then the Starbase's colony pods could provide 1 lab at its final upgrade.

on Jun 25, 2012

Also if 1 lab of each type per ship were deemed too weak, we could always go with a middle ground of 2 labs for the titan and 1 lab for each capitalship.

on Jun 25, 2012

I like the first tech being only military labs for ships, then the second (and more expensive) tech to be for the civilian labs. 

 

There, now the Vas can be full mobile, and the high tech advantage with moving SttC to tech level 8 will both be dealt with.

 

Win Win

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