I don't think superweapons are the way to go, mainly because a 2v1 situation can exist from the very beginning of the game when superweapons are not even remotely viable...

Many suicide players that get wiped tend to die or at least get trapped long before titans even come out...if the suicide player is still alive when it's getting hit by 2 titans, that player is most certainly not in a position to build a superweapon...

If you are talking more about late game (when fallen suidice players can allow frontliners to move on to someone else), superweapons may be on the table but usually suicide players fall long before then (and as such frontliners are able to move on tag team someone before they'd even have a chance at getting a superweapon)...

Humm, truly. Titans usually come into play before super weapons. 

What about the ability ideas though? You think they would make the late game more engaging (more fun to play, more strategy, no are a kill-switch)?

Another option: Flip around the Superweapon, and make it available at tech level 4, but only with the basic Titan defense thing. I will also cost less. It will have one upgrade slot, which would bestow it the old, tier 8 ability, and would cost money like a SB upgrade.

OK, my question is, where are you fighting?  Are you in a strategic location?  If you are the Advent, are you playing in a gravity well under your culture, so you can reap the benefits?  Or the TEC loyalists, are you defending your own gravity well??? 

I've reciently survived a 3-on-1 titan attack.

But I was playing the TEC loyalist in my own gravity well, and had two starbases as backup, as well as the best planetary defence grid I could make... I got hit by the Vasari Loyalists, Advent Rebels and Advent Loyalists all at once, all set to cruel.... my 8th lvl Ankylon against a 4th lvl Coronata, 5th lvl Eradica, and 7th lvl Vorastra... and all of our accompanying fleets.  What a furball that was!!!

The TEC Loyalists are best at defence, and this was no exception... the Vorastra made the mistake of jumping too far ahead of it's fleet, and right between my two starbases... I don't know what the AI was thinking, but the starbases dropped it in a matter of seconds, and even though it spawned a phase gate, my bombers took it out before it could summon up a dark fleet. 

The Coronata was annoying, because it kept stealing my ships... but not fast enough to make a difference.  It fell to a massive swarm of bombers.

The Eradica was definitly the worst, and was the very last ship standing... only then could I consentrate enough brute firepower to take it down... and keep it down!  lol....

It can be done... but like Sun Tsu advises... make the enemy fight at a place of YOUR choosing, not his... 

Yeah just_jim, but that's a best case scenario. Using the very best defensive race, and having time to set up proper defenses.

Now, under most circumstances, a 2v1 battle is already a killer. 

I am just pondering on how could we have other defensive options to help fending off Titans, without the uninventive option of just nerfing them all.

Understood... But in this case, I was not just nerfing the crap out of them, I was trying to stay in the character of the TEC loyalists, which is defensive.  Taking the Ankylon out on an offensive strike is a while different situation, and likely to get it destroyed.

I'm a big follower of Sun Tsu's "The Art of War", so I'm always looking for every advantage I can find, such as fighting very defensively if I'm playing the TL.  It's how the TL were designed.  If I'm playing TR I would play much more offensively.

I agree with Seleuceia, I don't think a superweapon is the way to go. I am very much against a "quick fix" for the titans. I like that their scary and horrible and hard as hell to kill... that's what makes them a titan.  To set one up for a kill, I prefer subtrifuge, if possible...  guerella attacks to keep my opponant off guard, even if they are smaller suicide strikes, and setting my opponant up to my best advantage, not theirs.  If I was to see two titans jumping towards me, and I didn't have the high-ground, so to speak, I would turn and retreat in a second. In fact, I will avoid a 1-on-1 fight between titans unless I hold a distinct advantage.   

Some might say this is just taking the easy way... yup.  I try to use every advantage I can, defense, attritician, research... using pirate bases and such for titan experience grinders.... and also using pirate raids when appropriate... capturing key enemy ships, if possible, and using them against my opponant... every mean, nasty trick I can think of... and so far I haven't had too much of a problem with enemy titans.

I hate fighting the new Eradica at high levels..... it's difficult even with your own high level Eradica. And I don't really think superweapons are the way to go either, after all a Novalith is supposed to be able to wipe out some smaller colonies on its own... I don't think a Titan could survive that, so it wouldn't make sense for a Titan to only take like 4k  damage. As is being discussed in the other thread I think a buff to Starbases is in order...

@ OP

The responses are given in magnitude of how overpowered they are.

Vasari- Giving vasari control of your most important ship's movements to any degree would be giving them FAR too much power in the game, well beyond any imbalance we've seen yet.

Advent- Very overpowered in the same way as the vasari idea.  Its more balanced than the vasari proposal however, because of the sheer economic/time/empire requirements to make this possible in a competitive sense.  So by sheer magnitude of OP, the vasari idea wins.

TEC- Didn't I post this idea first?  Thanks for the compliment.    This idea is relatively balanced with existing game mechanics, as long as the other superweapons get improved as well.

@ 2v1 conversation

You can improve any players 2v1, and 3v1 situation by allowing all starbases to have movement, much like my other thread on the matter.

That way the TEC and Advent investments in starbases become a valid form of defense.  This is the main reason why the vasari starbases are so good at defense, and can deal with 2v1 situations quite well against early game fleets.

@Just Jim

So am I, any nuggets of wisdom?  The high concept I got from reading that book is that you need to put your men in the position to make them believe they are fighting for their lives.  The good general has his hands on the reigns of his men's beliefs, and what they know about the situation.  Morale played a greater role in hand to hand/weapon to weapon combat then it does in modern warfare.  This is why the military nowadays has the policy that 'your morale is your responsibility', because ensuring good troop morale isn't as important anymore(and it costs a lot) with all of these technological constructs we use to fight with.

It can be done... but like Sun Tsu advises... make the enemy fight at a place of YOUR choosing, not his...  

This is the basic defense/offense setup of the game.  The point of many of these balance issues is not the fact that this is true in sins, its the fact that the defensive capabilities of the races are far from being balanced.

Its more of a development problem, where "traditional" game design says that for good real time strategy you need to have low defense, high offense action.  Sins is a game that is designed so that having a strong defense can still be overcome with titans, so the conventional wisdom is thrown upside down and therefore irrelevant.  The Advent and TEC are still forced into the conventional box however.

The vasari are the only race that break the conventional wisdom of this traditional RTS game design, and look, they are the strongest race of the 3 factions.  This is not a mysterious coincidence. 

The only tool that a player in suicide could viably produce that may offer some titan-countering would be anti-module ships...now, I personally am not a fan of these ships targetting titans but you asked for a possible solution and so I'm giving one...

Allow adjudicators and ogrovs to target titans...let us just assume for now that if this was done, these antimodule ships would only target titans (no other ships) and would do "enough" damage to justify their use/investment...

TEC of course have the most to gain from this because of the Ogrovs FFing ability....Advent would be better off than they are now, but TEC would still have an advantage because the ogrov has better FFing potential than the Adjudicator (though I suppose when fighting multiple titans Advent could conceivably be better off)...poor Vasari of course don't gain any benefit from this at all...

But, as it stands Vasari are the best race for 2v1s because of the Orky's ability to move in the gravity well...Advent I'd argue are the 2nd best because of their ability to get culture easier (and also put it on SB) which is crucial to suicide play...they also have the better "defensive ships" needed for suicide play compared to TEC (Advent have better defense vessels, fighters, and have guardians)...

So, will the order of "power" with anti-module ships goes TEC > Advent > Vasari, the order of "power" in terms of surviving suicide are the exact opposite (Vasari < Advent < TEC)...

Now let us address other complications...all players of course would be able to use antimodule ships against titans, not just suicide players...however, a current problem these days is killing high level titans without your own high level titans (or at least assortment of high level caps) so this means titans can always be countered even if you don't have XP on your side....

As far as actually implementing this, it could be done fairly easily via the damage tables...you could control the damage these ships do to structures and titans separately, and giving a value of zero for all other targets would make sure these ships can't target anything else...the only other thing affected by this would be the Orkies 2nd weapon upgrade...so, change it something else, who really cares if it is ANTIMODULE damage type or CAPITAL just like every other SB weapon...

Again, I don't like this idea but it is an idea and it can be implemented without any engine changes....it also could solve the problem...

Also, stop trolling y'all with your Sun Tzu bullshit...there is no concept of morale, inspiration, or stealth in this game...

lol sel, you are so wrong....

What makes a player quit early when they still have a chance?

Low morale, perhaps because you blew up his titan.  It happens.

What is stealth in this game?

Killing enemy scouts so they can't determine your strategy, like building up your fleet in secret.

What is inspiration in this game?

Getting your allies together in a gravity well to try to take an enemy out by working together.  Good teamwork inspires the victory.

Things don't have to be hard coded into the game to make it an aspect of the game design.  The art of war applies because it is a description of how people work.  People play against other people in this game.

Sareth....you're trolling...

OK, I apologize and bow to your infinite wisdom.  I had no idea you were so brilliant, and consider "The Art of War", considered to be the best book ever written on warfare, to be mere bullshit... I am sorry I bored you with my uneducated "trolling"...

Back on track: 

How about building half-of-a-superweapon on TL 4 or 3, just for defensive purposes against Titans, and a pay-for upgrade like a SB for the old planetary supershot ability?